I am available at the following contact info:
I will be revising this based on reader feedback.
SUMMARY
What I will say is that in the over 2 years I started dealing with the ASP.net team it cost me large chunks of money (in a training economy severely impacted by 9/11) and was presented with many partenrship and $$$ and marketing promises non of which were kept for example:
If they had never made the promise that was fine. I did not expect them to offer what they did, and tried to refuse it. If they changed their mind about the $79,000 training promise they could have told me that and I would be annoyed but they would remain honest people. What they did do is insist they would keep the promise for 11 months and then when I quit returning their phone calls because I failed to trust them they attacked my character publicly and privately acting as if I had no reason to be upset at them. When I contacted their boss Dave Treadwell to complain that a Program Manager should not be making promises they won't keep and hurting MS reputation within tho community, Scott and Robb changed their stance to "we never made that promise in December". Moving from people who made a promise and did not keep it to people who are liars - an even worse crime. They must have told Dave Treadwell they made some promises - he offered me $30k cash immediately to me to forget all their various promises ever happened. Since it was approximately 1/3 of the promised amount on training front alone and did not address numerous other promise they made, and Scott and Rob had attacked me publicly and privately conveniently not mentioning I had legit concerns, and I desired no future dealings with them, I did not accept that $30k. If they had apologized and retracted their public statement and admitted some responsibility, and restored my access to Forums and betas, I might have considered accepting a lesser fee or no fee,. But Dave, Scott and Rob wanted the $30k to buy me off pretending they never did any wrong, and the public and private damage to my reputation would still exist.
First let me say it was not one event it was many. But one of the most egregious events (the training promise) is presented here.
In December of 2002 I called Robert Howard (he and I talked often) and he and Scott Guthrie and I had a conference call. I told him of my plans for the upcoming year. I planned to quit doing ASP.net training full time (as I had been for 4 years) and take a full time job. In a year or 2 or 3 I would re-enter training field. But since Asp.net training last money whereas ASP Classic training made me lots of money* it was a necessary decision for me.
Rob Howard's reaction (and Scott Guthrie also) was emphatic.
Rob Howard: "You cannot quit training.
Your classes are too important to the ASP.net team. How about this... We will
place 2 students at full price in every class you teach this year."
Charles Carroll: "I really wish you would just let your sales
department know that I exist as a training resource and introduce me to the
customers you are currently sending to Developmentor. I don't want your charity
or government cheese. If I comp in people from big companies that tends to lead
to paying business once I get the first student in (even for free) paid business
always follows. I have to turn down this. The ASP.net team's charity does not
interest me. Your sales department acknowledging I exist and telling customers
about me as well as training is good enough. That is not happening now!"
Rob Howard: "Charles, you cannot say no. Just say Yes. We will
send two people at full price to EVERY public class you offer this year."
Scott Guthrie: "Just get Rob all your training dates and we will find 2
students for every class this year. Your work is very important to the ASP.net
team."
And in the 1/2/2002 email (reprinted below) you
will see the thing that Rob said in writing that he continued to say verbally
all year in 2002 I quote:
Rob Howard: I realize you are frustrated, but please trust us here.
Everything we spoke about on the phone a couple of weeks ago remains true. Just
be patient and it will fall into place.
Before Classic ASP reached a tipping point in 98 I worked full time NOT TEACHING until training market had enough volume to justify getting in. I can work a full time job coding (it helps me be a better teacher anyway) and often do so when training market is soft over my 18 year training career. I have had experience in training in 1.0 Platforms (like Windows 1.0) and generally such markets are favorable for consultants, but not as much so for training companies focusing on teaching beginners. Asp.net 2.0 will be a great market for training companies focused on beginners as it achieves a "tipping point" and more beginners than veterans enter ASP.net programming.
In February I gave Rob my class dates (which were always available at AspTraining.com) he found me 0 paying students but I let 2 Microsoft local employees in Miami in for FREE (George Yan georgey@microsoft.com and his co-worker) that I contacted. They enjoyed the class and remarked it was better than Developmentor classes they took that were over their head but that Microsoft had taken away local training budgets and told them they had to take classes from a block of pre-purchased Developmentor classes by Seattle headquarters and could not choose any different local training. Rob apologized and said he would find me students for March class and he also said he would get me the 2 students every class this year nothing had changed.
In March I came a week before my private meeting with me and 40 AspElite and the ASP.net team and taught a class on campus. Rob Howard and Scott Guthrie despite receiving 3 months advance notice had forgot about my class. I comped in 3 Microsoft people (who praised the class very much) and Scott and Rob found 3 people to warm seats and Rob claimed he would give me money for 2 students when we met at lunch. He did not meet me for lunch and did not give me money for 2 students. I did talk to Rob in person at meeting next week and he insisted that he would get me payment for 2 students every class in 2002 once he found the right people at Microsoft and apologized for the delays.
Subject: RE: Please Pretty Please invite
lots of Microsoft Employees to my class next week!
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2002 07:18:43 -0800
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-Topic: Please Pretty Please invite lots of Microsoft Employees to my
class next week!
thread-index: AcHBJiFb77WZ3+r5RvSlfq+UOHR3EwCabWKg
From: "Rob Howard" <rhoward@microsoft.com>
To: "Charles M. Carroll" <911@learnasp.com>,
"Scott Guthrie" <scottgu@microsoft.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 04 Mar 2002 15:19:46.0084 (UTC) FILETIME=[04792640:01C1C390]
X-RCPT-TO: <911@learnasp.com>
Hi Charles,
There will be Microsoft attendees in the class - I'll be over later today to sit
in on it as well :)
We would also like to pay for some of the attendees. I think you mentioned
below: for every paying attendee we get one free?
Let's sync up at lunch today and chat.
Thanks
Rob
Rob Howard: "Charles you really have to
remind me about classes. Its soooooo hard to know when you are teaching. I want
to send 2 people to every class but I can't if I don't know when your classes
are. We are good guys you know we keep every promise we make. Also just get me
the exact details and I will get you money for students this year."
Charles Carroll: Http://www.asptraining.com
always has my class dates and locations. I only teach 8-12 classes per year max
and they are easy to find on website but I will remind you. In terms of exact
details if you buy 2 $25,000 Corporate Passes that avoids having to purchase
individual classes."
Rob Howard: "Some people I need to talk to are away but I will talk to them
and get you the 2 students for all your classes this year."
In April and May I held more classes. Rob when contacted by email and phone insisted he was still 100% serious about sending me 2 students and had not changed his mind. A common quote is that "we are good guys and we except our promise to fund AspFriends - we will make good on training promise we are just having trouble contacting the right 2 people at Microsoft to take the classes. We will keep working through the red tape and keep that promise." I have reprinted the email below with Rob Howord's comments in red and my comments in blue.
The bottom line was by June the ASP.net team had delivered on none of their December promises by June although phone calls and emails asking if they changed their mind were always greeted with emphatic insistence they ran into delays but intended to do everything they promised in December and that I should trust them because they were good guys who always kept their promises. I however saw no evidence their promises in December would ever be kept since they had not sent me even 1 student. They insisted I should not worry that they would keep the December promise - they were just busy.
In June I closed LearnAsp and AspFriend main page for 24 hours. Scott Guthrie called me in Japan and promised that the things he had not followed through on would be done and made me some new outrageous promises that I took with a grain of salt (promised me over $200k in marketing support for my tranining) and I put the site back up. But I knew that Guthrie and howard promises were worthless by this point. They had not even sent me 1 student or 1 student fee while promising a years worth of 2 students in every class.
Below are some of the Rob Howard / Charles Carroll emails. Rob's remarks in red, mine are in blue. I intend to make all of our correspondence (for people that want to see all the facts) ni a ZIP in a few days.
Subject: RE:
Conversation with the MVP team
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:27:53 -0800
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-Topic: Conversation with the MVP team
Thread-Index: AcGT62A5XsH0lFxhQkWy4t1Eu5jzgQAAKjsg
From: "Rob Howard" <rhoward@microsoft.com>
To: <911@learnasp.com>
Cc: "Mark Anders" <markand@microsoft.com>,
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jan 2002 00:27:54.0301 (UTC) FILETIME=[7C2E0ED0:01C193ED]
X-RCPT-TO: <911@learnasp.com>
Charles,
You are not being ignored. The MVP team is a new organization with new people. I
had never even met them before the MVP summit. I promise you they are working on
fixing the problems, but you have to give them some time. As for not writing,
they've been on vacation. Janni just send me some email apologizing for not
following up with you yet. Please give them the opportunity - they are not
ignoring you.
Charles I really don't know how else to communicate it, but you've really got
the wrong impression as to what is happening:
- You have a direct (and yes, I mean DIRECT) relationship with the ASP.NET team.
Nobody, not DEVX and not DevelopMentor has that.- Your lists are the #1 resource
we use when we talk about the ASP.NET community.
I realize you are frustrated, but please trust us here. Everything we spoke
about on the phone a couple of weeks ago remains true. Just be patient and it
will fall into place.
As for the cost of ASPFriends.com, I think it's time that we start helping out
more. How much does it cost / month?
Thanks,
Rob
Subject: RE: Conversation with the MVP team
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 16:46:48 -0800
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-Topic: Conversation with the MVP team
Thread-Index: AcGT7xxvWhjJ6kdhQJuJxlmPGBFKJwAAGlRw
From: "Rob Howard" <rhoward@microsoft.com>
To: <911@learnasp.com>
Cc: "Mark Anders" <markand@microsoft.com>,
"Scott Guthrie" <scottgu@microsoft.com>,
"Susan Warren" <swarren@microsoft.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 03 Jan 2002 00:46:48.0674 (UTC) FILETIME=[2051A420:01C193F0]
X-RCPT-TO: <911@learnasp.com>
I thought you were pretty well covered for Sept -> Dec.
You should have
received ~$4,000 for each of those months, correct? I'll speak with our
marketing folks tomorrow about putting something more permanent in
place.
I made a commitment to you to solve the marketing/promotion problem,
which prior to your emails we were not aware of. Give us the opportunity
before passing judgment. I think we have a pretty good track record of
doing the right thing.
Thanks
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles Carroll [mailto:charlesmarkcarroll@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 4:39 PM
To: Rob Howard; 911@learnasp.com
Cc: Mark Anders; Scott Guthrie; Susan Warren
Subject: RE: Conversation with the MVP team
I have to pay 3k as of January 1st for December's AspFriend's bill. That 3k was
coming out of retirement savings so I cannot afford it but I owe it. Then of
course 3k will be due again Feb 1st, March 1st, etc.
It used to be 4k per month with increases as message volume raised (20 million
would have cost $5k, 30 million $6k, etc), but I cut a killer deal in November
that meant more work for me but less money per month.
The current deal allows message volume to become up to 60 million
messages with NO increases (we are at 12 million now) -- it was an incredible
negotiation and I had to trade some serious consulting time of mine in 2002 to
make that happen.
My immediate emergency is the 3k for December but when I pay it unless I know I
can afford Feb-May I knew I better cancel, so I don't create an ongoing expense
I can't afford.
I do not doubt I am #1 in your all's heart and mind. I work my ASS off making
AspFriends.com somewhere you all can be proud of many hours every day (the
LyrisMail utility was days of work as was the new moderate tool with even more
amazing features to improve the list) I do think by inaction and constantly
shifting personell the #1 in heart and mind has gotten me no exposure in
Microsoft's website and magazines at all hardely. I have many win-win ideas
where I could get mentioned and promote myself and community -- but I can't get
to first base with anyone at Microsoft besides you guys. It is all words and no
action.
Subject: RE: Your email I promised you...
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 11:48:08 -0800
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-Topic: Your email I promised you...
Thread-Index: AcGYeQd1wASnyhY4R2OlpCTMzQlcsQABEMGg
From: "Rob Howard" <rhoward@microsoft.com>
To: <911@learnasp.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2002 19:48:08.0952 (UTC) FILETIME=[65CF8F80:01C1987D]
X-RCPT-TO: <911@learnasp.com>
Charles,
Do you have some time tomorrow to chat on the phone? I'd like to discuss $$ and
introduce you to Eric Ewing.
Please give me some times and the # to call you at.
Thx
Rob
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 21:09:37 -0800
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-Topic: Our communication channel with SQLserver and IIS upcoming versions
teams....
thread-index: AcHaBHB4aq/A3D9pQqqeVasYVRq+5wAAAT8Q
From: "Rob Howard" <rhoward@microsoft.com>
To: "Charles M. Carroll" <darthcarroll@asplists.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Apr 2002 05:09:25.0230 (UTC) FILETIME=[8EB908E0:01C1DA04]
X-RCPT-TO: <darthcarroll@asplists.com>
Can you send me the cost breakdowns?
-----Original Message-----
From: Charles M. Carroll [mailto:darthcarroll@asplists.com]
Sent: Monday, April 01, 2002 9:07 PM
To: Rob Howard
Subject: RE: Our communication channel with SQLserver and IIS upcoming
versions teams....
At 08:47 PM 4/1/2002 -0800, you wrote:
>Thank you - I've let the product team members know. Hopefully they'll
>join soon :) (I know IIS will, as they specifically asked for the
list).
Any word from Eric Ewing on any training purchase?
(and I soon will have definitive documentation on the
extensive
Developmentor purchases by someone in MS corporate - names and dates - since
your research is fruitless)
I am contemplating just getting out of training - working for someone else
formally suits me better than begging. Reducing all my evangelism and hen
entering again in 2004 after I have built up a "warchest" of $$$$ since support
for training seems difficult to get from MS short of reminder emails, etc. and
one hand has no idea what other is doing.
From: "Rob
Howard" <rhoward@microsoft.com>
To: "Charles M. Carroll" <darthcarroll@asplists.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Apr 2002 07:01:27.0768 (UTC) FILETIME=[DF51ED80:01C1DD38]
X-RCPT-TO: <darthcarroll@asplists.com>
It would be good to add aspfree – I’ll follow up with Eric on that.
Also, I haven’t gotten a chance to sit down with Eric yet to discuss training
passes. Hopefully next week at Teched.
Did you sync up with the folks on the opportunities in Dallas?
Subject: RE: Please do
not hijack the name AspAce!
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 09:54:48 -0800
X-MS-Has-Attach:
X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
Thread-Topic: Please do not hijack the name AspAce!
Thread-Index: AcKKcXF86jAI8A1tR7Wg5qRPsNQKTQBM/N2AAEkIQYA=
Priority: Urgent
Importance: high
From: "Rob Howard" <rhoward@microsoft.com>
To: "Mark Anders" <markand@microsoft.com>,
"Charles M. Carroll" <darthcarroll@learnasp.com>,
"Scott Guthrie" <scottgu@microsoft.com>,
"Eric Feagler" <efeagler@microsoft.com>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Nov 2002 17:55:00.0811 (UTC) FILETIME=[1E3BB1B0:01C28CD0]
X-Note: This E-mail was scanned by Declude JunkMail (www.declude.com) for spam.
X-Spam-Tests-Failed: None
X-Note: This E-mail was sent from mail2.microsoft.com. ([131.107.3.124]).
X-RCPT-TO: <darthcarroll@learnasp.com>
Charles,
I wish we could have talked yesterday about this (but unfortunately you just
hung up on me both times) so I'll put it all in email.
....
> I have not received the 2
students in every class Rob and you
> directly promised in February. ZERO students to date.
> Apparently even though that was voluteerd repeatedly and stated
> as a fait accompli in 4 conversations if it is not EVER going
> to happen please inform me of that and I will drop the matter.
#6 Class
attendees for your training
---------------------------------------
This is a case where we over promised and under delivered. I'll takefull
responsibility, but I am simply not able to keep track of all your classes and
spend time finding students for you. We promote you internally and when I know
your going to a location, such as Dallas, I successfully hooked you up with the
local office.
Maybe as part of your ambassador program you should find someone that can remind
us 'Hey, Charles is going to be in XXXXX any people you could ping that would be
interested in attending his class?'
I hope that clears some things up. If not, please give me a call. I've always
made myself available to you.
office (425) 706-8927
cell (425) 765-0815
Rob
The exact amount of the training promise they made is broken down here (it adds up to $79,000). despite all their fantastic promises I would like to emphasize in 2 years they did not send me even 1 paying student. Not even 1.
Rob Howard's and Scott Guthrie's commitment in writing and insistence and volunteering that they would send to send two students to each class I offered this year, breaks down to this:
1/30/02 Miami 2 * 3200 = $6,400
2/4/02 Arizona 2 * 3200 = $6,400
2/11/02 Maryland 2 * 3200 = $6,400
3/4/02 Seattle 2 * 3200 = $6,400
4/22/02 Dallas 2 * 3200 = $6,400
5/11/02 Honolulu 2 * 3200 = $6,400
6/10/02 Miami 2 * 3200 = $6,400
9/9/02 Portland 2 * 3200 = $6,400
10/7/02 Maryland 2 * 3200 = $6,400
10/21/02 Phoenix 2 * 2500 = $5,000
11/18/02 Orlando 2 * 2500 = $5,000
12/9/2002 Rockville 2 * 2500 = $5,000
And the commitment they would pay $15,000 to deploy Mac's search engine was
stated several times a month. They did not ever keep that promise. These are not
the only promises they made of their own free will but these are the ones I took
the time to write up.