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AspGuild: Vote Early, Vote Often! No HTTPs here! <Next>
The "Charles Explains..." column write charlescarroll@learnasp.com with feedback
AspGuild.org: Community or Sales Tactic? I say it does nothing for the ASP community....
Your feedback on this article is here:
From: "Ian, Stallings (Strategy.com Consultant)" <istallings@strategy.com> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2000 17:38:55
Charles, I wanted to try to voice my opinion on the ASPGuild. I don't mind people making money from ASP sites and organizations. I say go for it. But what pisses me off is that every year they try to promote ASPDevcon here in the DC area and then after the shows over - "poof". Back into thin air. Where is this so called community that they speak of?
[Editors note: I assume he is talking about WROX convention as aspDevCon never was in DC and Wrox was...]
Also I would like to encourage this type of writing in the future. It opens the eyes of newbies to the pitfalls of ASP development and it lends a personal feel to the site that it seriously needed. As the de-facto leader of ASP development your opinion is highly regarded and it is your responsibility to point out both the good and bad of the industry. I hope it continues.
Ian Stallings - Web Dev istallings@strategy.com
Charles answers:
If you want a DC ASP community get in touch with: http://www.asplists.com/asplists/aspdc.asp
Not run by convention folks but the community is on that list waiting to hear from you.
From: "Philip Klein" <most@wolfenet.com> Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2000 16:51:56 -0000
Hi Charles,
I don't disagree about your specific criticisms of aspguild, and I agree that there needs to be forthright talk about the not-so-pretty as about the praiseworthy. I rather simply never found what I needed or wanted at aspguild and moved on, despite being a community-minded person. I do think it's incorrect to confuse aspguild with aspdevcon, not because they're independent, but because different people & discussions & work takes place at each, albeit with some of the same folks. Despite some problems, aspdevcon the events provided me with lots of good free code in an innovative form that let me review it before the event, and offered some good lectures & discussions.
I would respond to the tone and the role of criticism that's not based solely on self-esteem elevation. To me, you're raising the broader and unresolved issue of how do we agree to comport ourselves in the quasi-public, quasi-private domain of online communication. For me, you set a landmark in this arena by standing up for the role of moderation in the listservs, which is a strategy that wins over the approach that all message are equal in value. Your article opens the window and lets you get a bit in the reader's face, which I must say is refreshing and overdue. And I take that as an invite to me to be kinda in your face. In my opinion, you're letting your gall at aspguild get the better of your commentary, setting your valid criticism up to be dismissed as that of some ticked off guy doing a little spew in red. You can afford to have more poise and to let them dig their own hole in mediocrity. I say you're totally right to point out limitations and to express opinions. The way you do this in this article I think is one that earns enemies and I don't think that serves learnasp as well as it could. Your passion and feistiness has deep roots, but sometimes you seem to let it use you instead of employing & deploying it to best effect. If the questions you asked were not loudly rhetorical "...am I missing something?" I think you'd get a better and less defensive response from those who'd disagreed which, if persuasion is a goal, would seem desirable. Personally, I'm a fan of direct editorializaing that politely says straight up what criticisms there are, points out coexisting positive attributes where possible, and invites the readers to choose a conclusion as they see fit. I have to say, I love reading the passion between the lines and view my differences with your approach as ones of preference. And a bit too much passion is better than none, so with a suggestion to creatively temper, put me down as a supporter of your editorial writing.
--phil klein
From: "Terry & Leticia" <terrys@wcnet.net> Subject: Article about ASPGuild Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2000 23:19:00
Hi Charles, Wow, what an eye opener! I had their logo graphic on one of my pages.. well, it's gone now! Just out of curiosity, by having their graphic on my site is that why you stopped showing my link? Anyways, I appreciate the fact that you did have it listed for a short while.
Take care, Terry Sliva www.programmersresource.com
From: <bergsey@ij.net> To: <charlescarroll@learnasp.com> Subject: AspGuild.org: Community or Sales Tactic? Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 22:29:08
Charles,
Couldn't agree more. I am sorry I ever signed up to be on the list in the first place. I do however receive plenty of emails informing me of the next ASPDevCon show.
Their content is slim to borderline terrible at best and I should not have to give up personal information to view resources that I can find on any number of ASP Resource Sites. I felt like I was somewhat duped into giving up my personal information in return for a true Guild service. What I have received is nothing! I thought that .org's had to be non profit types??
Who knows where my personal information was sold to.
Keep up the good work, and I don't mind having my response posted if you are planning on doing so with the responses you receive.
Victor Berggren www.mavweb.net
From: "Thomas Whalen" <daisydoo@dtgnet.com> To: <hatethat@learnasp.com> Subject: what is with the criticizm? Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 17:45:50
Hi,
I must be hippo-critical here. Why does Mr. Charles Carroll even devote his time to belittling the "ASP DevCon-friendly" website? That site clearly is not worth looking at, but talking bad about them only made me wonder if there was anything that www.learnasp.com was doing wrong. That should not be your focus, in my honest/stubborn opinion. My suggestion is that rather than chastizing that "faux asp site" for their "faux community" hype, why not encourage them to join you in your efforts to show the world what internet/asp community is all about?
Thomas Whalen Web Developer harrison2@dtgnet.com
to which I respond:
That article is an experiment. Consumer Reports reports when the Suzuki 4 wheel car rolls. I appreciate your vote against any harsh criticisms. When all the feedback arrives I will decide whether to write future articles in that tone.
PC-Magazine is full of opinion columns -- we know what John Dvorak thinks for example or Jim Seymour. I have not expressed my opinion on the web that often thugh those that know me know I am VERY opinionated.
This was something that galled me. AspDevCon has ripped off many people in many ways I know and seeing those "AspGuild" icons by innocent, naive folks who help sell more convention seats unwittingly. I would rather see them running the ASP101 WebRing icons which is a real sincere effort.
Thanks for writing me. I count you as one vote against any columns that are negative. But it is not "convention friendly". Charlie Bass owns both site so I object to the phrase "independent non-profit organization".
From: "Thomas Whalen" <daisydoo@dtgnet.com> To: "Charles M. Carroll" <hatethat@learnasp.com> Subject: Re: what is with the criticizm? Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2000 20:17:54 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0
Charles, I hope that I did not offend you with my response to your negative article on the ASPGuild site. It's quite safe that both you and I are very strong in the sense of opinions....and, you're a hell of a lot better than I am in ASP. [no patronizing intended]. I do like your site, and do appreciate your site much more after learning why you use so many pastel colors. Which brings me to another point: With my being a very strong advocate for the feminist movement, I think that presenting your site with pastels certainly does give it a softer touch, and anything that will help draw a heck of a lot more "Patti's" and "Sheryl's" gets an "A" in my book. The only thing that I have trouble with in viewing your site is that everything is kinda' mashed together. In some ways I think that presents a nice, serious "all content, no glitter" approach, in other ways it is kind of hard on the eyes to pick out all the important stuff.
Thomas
To which I respond:
At 0817 PM 1/1/00 -0600, you wrote
> Charles, > I hope that I did not offend you with my response > to your negative article on the ASPGuild site.
Dishonesty or silence is the only thing that offends me. Democracy is the coolest thing. We all get to put in our two-cents. A couple of my close friends and wife think anything negative is a mistake so I am watching the reaction like a hawk. I think people like a personal touch and a watchdog but I could be wrong. I need people to supply feedback. If the article vanishes then you will know many people expressed your sentiment. In 2 weeks I will know...
If you have any specific suggestions about how to fix the layout send them on. I am a very poor layout person and often screw up things because I try several things and get one that looks better than others. But much of the final layouts are better than the initial drafts but still pretty hideous. Vague comments like "mashed together" tell me a problem exists. Of course I am not sure if you mean the main page, the lesson pages, a listserver signup form or what. (But hey, you are not someone who has to help. You have a job where someone pays for your expertise not fix my layout problems). BUT if you notice anything concrete, i.e. "On page ___ you could do ___ and it would be more readable" I might be able to make it easier on your eyes. So if you have any specifics send them on.